one point... when you say "you have Colbert, Fallon, Stewart, Oliver, Kimmel, and Meyers all marching in lockstep formation with The Agreed Upon Correct Views with their jokes," i think it is fascinating to conflate all of them.
for example, John Oliver is doing something VERY different from Jimmy Fallon.
and even if they do share many social and political views (which i'll grant seems so), and even if there IS some "The Agreed Upon Correct Views" to it all (which i necessarily don't agree with, though i understand the spirit of what you're getting at), then i would say that many right-leaning comics are essentially marching in lockstep formation with The Agreed Upon INCORRECT Views with THEIR jokes.
like, i've seen so many versions of "but what if bullying is GOOD actually?" not to mention of course "you can't say anything anymore" peppered with an assortment of r-words and old stereotypes and transphobic slurs and such.
not to mention (or, to mention!), "Spouting the establishment corporatist view" isn't what Colbert, Fallon, Stewart, Oliver, Kimmel, and Meyers are doing. all three branches of the US government are majority right wing, so for someone to be LEFT-leaning these days is, i would say, more anti-establishment than the other way.
"John Oliver is doing something VERY different from Jimmy Fallon"
Fair. And worth keeping in mind that Oliver is the only one of 'em who doesn't have advertisers to keep happy.
Obviously I'm lumping here, but still, what do they differ on when it comes to politics or pleasing corporate overlords or the "approved by the establishment elites" view?
Would any of 'em ever, say, make a joke that argues against trans women competing in women's sports? 80% of Americans are against that in polls so it seems like a ripe topic for mockery. Same with DEI stuff. Is it any wonder that the comics that DO bring things like that up are gaining fans if those topics are taboo for these folks?
The classic examples to me are when Stewart went on Colbert and said it was a lab leak or when Burr said, "Free Luigi." The sweat on both hosts was palpable. Basically: "Um, we don't do that HERE." Aka "Our advertisers would not be okay with that."
"many right-leaning comics are essentially marching in lockstep formation"
Yeah, I'm not saying the other side (if we're splitting into teams here) is better, just pointing out why they've gained so much popularity. Supply and demand, y'know? As Mitt Romney once replied when asked why he was going so conservative during his Presidential run: "There's shelf space on the right." Agreed there is plenty of tired hackdom going on there.
"all three branches of the US government are majority right wing, so for someone to be LEFT-leaning these days is, i would say, more anti-establishment than the other way."
Depends who you think rules this country. Is it the US government? Because these hosts weren't being anti-Biden in the same way they are anti-Trump. (I hate him too fwiw.)
One could argue the establishment is the corporate overlords who 1) run their broadcast networks and 2) advertise on their shows. Feels pretty obvious these hosts don't wanna get in the crosshairs of those folks. And lots of people can smell that and don't vibe with it and want to hear someone disrupting that rather than going along with it (which feels related to why Dems lost so resoundingly in the last election).
Also, in addition to SURPRISE being a primary characteristic of comedy, I would add that COMMUNICATING WHAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE is often a major facet of it, for a lot of comedians. Not for everyone!
I say this to offer an explanation that makes a lot of sense as to why these hosts have been much more critical of Trump than of Biden (though Stewart certainly went after Biden quite a bit). I don't think they're only aiming to please their corporate overlords (though when you have corporate overlords who can take you off the air, I get that they might consider that when deciding what to put ON the air), I think they're also speaking from the truth of their experience. One reason comics might treat Trump differently than Biden is because Trump is different from Biden, for example.
Regarding "DEI stuff," I think that folks like Stewart, Colbert, Oliver, Kimmel, etc. actually believe that diversity is valuable, and that there are studies that back that idea, so I think the reason they're not going after DEI is because of who they are and what they believe.
I understand the perspective that some comics stand by, where they're not on any side, they're on the funny side. They call out hypocrisy wherever they see it, and they're not beholden to anyone. AND I think there are a lot of comics in this modern rightwingosphere of comedy who are claiming cover under that umbrella while saying nothing much of substance or import (while seeming to CLAIM that it's of substance or import), often super bananas stuff, that isn't based in the reality of their experience, or much of reality at all. Patrice, they all ain't.
And that is a good point about John Oliver not being beholden to advertisers. Many points taken!
Shorter version: Feels like many perceive these hosts I mentioned as falling under a Democratic/elite/establishment/corporatist/advertiser-approved worldview and anything that goes against that pov is anathema to their act and that's why so many are seeking comedy that goes against that grain. Stewart coming on Colbert and saying it was quite possibly a lab leak felt groundbreaking because it was so unexpected. It was like a canary in the Paramount+ coal mine. Your point about saying what you believe is of course a good one. But if everything you supposedly believe aligns precisely with what your advertisers want you to believe, people may start to get suspicious.
I agree with your last sentence! And I question whether all of their comedy does indeed align with what “their advertisers want you to believe.” I don’t know! I’m not watching all of it.
I also agree with your first sentence.
And I think it’s very interesting that you say “FEELS like many PERCEIVE…”
I understand this is a conversation about generalizations, but I think at some point, without specific examples, generalizing runs the risk of getting farther and farther from the truth, into the realm of feels and perceptions!
I appreciate you, friend! THAT IS THE TRUTH AND I DO NOT CARE WHETHER THE ADVERTISERS WANT ANYONE TO BELIEVE IT
I like the things both you fellows said here. I’ll add this, which may not add much. I’m not a comedian, just a writer who uses humor sporadically. (More than I use sun block, put it that way.) But i am a huge student of comedy, and although I like comics who are just funny and I don’t argue that getting laughs is less important than serious-minded comedy, I’m a huge Lenny Bruce fan. For me he is a model, because he was often very funny, but also a very serious thinker, and he basically sacrificed his career to tilt at windmills and did THAT very well. And he changed our country, and thus it’s frustrating to see people talking about him as if he’s just a dull historical figure and not a great artist and also a great entertainer.
I bring him up because he could be seen today as a man of the left, and in terms of history and civil rights for both race and gender, he most easily fits into that box. But he also tweaked liberals, especially virtue-signaling which was a fresher target at the time, and was more anti-establishment than anything else. Three decades ago, my fellow liberals got very uncomfortable when i played his records at my house, and I’m sure today the response would be far more hostile.
I spent years laughing at many of the TV comics mentioned here, and i should clarify that i’m anti-trump in the same way i’ve always been anti-Joe McCarthy, but I eventually got weary of the john oliver approach, and the general tv approach discussed above. Not because my politics shifted, but because i just got tired of being pandered to. I like that jon stewart mocked biden enough that I’ve seen liberals suggest (insist, really) that he was out of date and needed to leave the scene. I think when you’re partisan enough, you basically feel the media, including comics, are here to serve the forces of good. (Whatever you think those are.) And I don’t like that idea.
Mainly for this reason— i don’t want a comedy scene where comics aren’t allowed to mock people and ideas on the approved list, even when that list is largely people and ideas that i like. I think if you tune into comedy and you demand pandering, you don’t see comedy the way i do; comics are— or they used to be— among the only social commentators that could be honest about sacred cows, and honest about our human flaws. Historically, a lot of stuff liberals absolutely take for granted now is part of our culture largely because of the work of bruce, pryor, et al, and the current progressive stance that comics are one joke away from the left’s enemies list has been a helpful reminder to me that i care about comedy more than politics. I’ve also been reminded that Americans tend to be parochial about their own history, and the history of art and culture in this country.
My voting pattern isn’t about to shift toward Trump, for reasons people don’t need me to spell out. Trump, for me, is Roy Cohn’s protege. There’s more to him than that, but i don’t need there to be more. I knew plenty about Roy Cohn before Trump was a household word, and anyone who stole his act from Cohn can be dismissed for that reason alone, at my house at least. And i am very afraid of what a Cohn protege can do to our country. But when it comes to comedy, i don’t think it’s healthy when comics are afraid to touch the sacred cows of the moment.
I like the comedy both of you do; Myq has a powerful comedy technique— he’s like an open fire hydrant— and Matt is very good at puncturing the smug and complacent thinking that is everywhere in our country today. I’m sorry I’ve missed you both when you’ve played my area. Also, now that I see what it looks like on the screen, I very much regret that choice of words. Let’s say I hope to catch you next time you concertize in my jurisdiction.
One thing, with respect to this: "i don’t want a comedy scene where comics aren’t allowed to mock people and ideas on the approved list"...
Who is saying that people aren't allowed to mock whom?
I mean, if someone makes an unoriginal joke mocking trans people or the mentally ill or some such, I certainly will think things like "that's a bad joke and an ignorant person," but never "they're not ALLOWED to say that." And even if someone SAYS "they're not allowed," that's not true. I mean, back in the days of Carlin and Lenny Bruce, those guys literally went to JAIL for saying things. Actual censorship.
I say what I want to. And there are things I won't say today that I did say in the past, because of my own choices. I used to have a joke about sexual assault that I thought was very funny and had solid joke logic to it and was original and a good joke, AND some dudes came up to me after a show once and said "we loved the rape joke, bro," and that made me reconsider what that joke was doing. Not to compare myself to Chappelle, but I'm exactly like Chappelle who left a multi-million dollar TV show job because people weren't laughing the way he intended, is the story.
When we're talking about late night show hosts who have TV jobs at companies owned by big corporations with obligations to advertisers, the question of who's "allowed" to say what takes on a different meaning than a standup deciding what to say, which might differ based on situation, you know?
Like, I've performed at Catholic colleges and they've asked for no jokes about abortion. Plenty of corporate comedians are given guidelines to avoid certain topics. You want to do standup on the Tonight Show, you can't swear!
We comedians all make decisions about what gigs we say yes to and what material we decide to write and perform.
And as audience members, we all get to decide what we like and what we don't, voting with our eyeballs and dollars and attention and such.
With respect to this... "I think when you’re partisan enough, you basically feel the media, including comics, are here to serve the forces of good. (Whatever you think those are.) And I don’t like that idea."
I understand what you're saying AND I think it's every human being's obligation to treat others with respect/kindness. Including media. Including comics. I don't know that it's a partisan thing. I do know that not everyone agrees on what treating others with respect/kindness looks like. And maybe people won't even agree with my use of the word "obligation" here. I don't know if I agree with it. But there's something in the spirit of it that I think we all can understand. Like, as members of a society, we have an obligation not to physically harm each other. That's codified in our laws, but that's not why most people don't harm each other. We have a sense of it. We know it when we see it. And some of us see it slightly differently than others.
Words are powerful. Freedom of speech is important AND there are times when free speech is not absolute (e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, or libel/slander, say).
I think some people wield their powerful words with great care and thoughtfulness. And some other folks do other things!
That's all! (Folks!) ?!
Thanks again for sharing, Karl! And Matt! Great conversation!
Sure, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. And I don’t tend to gravitate to the comics who traffic in cheap laughs, or whose jokes play on prejudice rather than insight or substantive social commentary. I should also say that the stuff I’m talking about cuts both ways; consumers across the spectrum want to be pandered to. And I also think, generally, that the cultural shift that has ended up with audiences less tolerant of cheap jokes based on othering is a good thing. I’m not trying to romanticize the past, as some do. I think the most accurate take is that people have always been narrow minded and provincial, and the comedy landscape has always reacted to that in more than one way at any given time, because every comic is different, and every comic has to make choices about how to make a living, and juggle the needs of art and commerce.
I see a lot of people making points similar to mine, or Matt’s, and they don’t seem to be in good faith. For the most part, the anti-woke crowd leaves me cold, and most of that message feels gratuitous and disingenuous. And when I watch comedy with a right wing bent, it suffers from the same kind of narrow-mindedness I’m chiding the left for. I recall a bit one comic did where he was pissed off that guy fieri gets mocked while anthony bourdain is admired. (This was back when bourdain was alive.) And this comic clearly knew nothing about Bourdain; he was trying to chide the left for its prejudice, but he wasn’t demonstrating any self awareness about his own blind spots. The whole bit was painful to watch. And I imagine I would see many more things like that if I were more open in my viewing habits.
I see Bill Burr as a guy who balances all of it pretty well; I used to find some of his comedy irritating, but he made me think, and over time I’ve warmed up to him. And I think it’s definitely fair to say that for every Bill Burr, who takes his job seriously, there are a lot of comics who want things more open mainly so their job will be easier. I suspect that even when you and I might appear to be in disagreement, generalizing here about large and complicated trends, we would probably line up most of the time when evaluating a particular joke or comic.
It’s difficult to talk about this stuff, especially on social media, where saying one thing can easily look like you missed some other important thing.
This whole thread is an example of what can happen when thoughtful people dig into a complex issue; it’s healthy and helpful. It’s also not typical of social media conversation, unfortunately.
Like with this: "every comic is different, and every comic has to make choices about how to make a living, and juggle the needs of art and commerce."
And this: "I see a lot of people making points similar to mine, or Matt’s, and they don’t seem to be in good faith. For the most part, the anti-woke crowd leaves me cold, and most of that message feels gratuitous and disingenuous."
And this: "for every Bill Burr, who takes his job seriously, there are a lot of comics who want things more open mainly so their job will be easier."
And this: "It’s difficult to talk about this stuff, especially on social media, where saying one thing can easily look like you missed some other important thing."
And THIS: "This whole thread is an example of what can happen when thoughtful people dig into a complex issue; it’s healthy and helpful."
I agree as well that generalizing can only go so far (he said, generalizing).
And if this kind of conversation isn't typical of social media (a generalization), the good news is that each of us is a specific individual, and we can be the kind of social media interaction we want to see in the world. We can be the real specific human interaction we want to see in the world. And in comedy.
And good news, we're doing it!
Thanks again, my friend!
And thanks Matt for setting the table for this delicious food for thought meal.
dear matt,
a very interesting question and answer.
one point... when you say "you have Colbert, Fallon, Stewart, Oliver, Kimmel, and Meyers all marching in lockstep formation with The Agreed Upon Correct Views with their jokes," i think it is fascinating to conflate all of them.
for example, John Oliver is doing something VERY different from Jimmy Fallon.
and even if they do share many social and political views (which i'll grant seems so), and even if there IS some "The Agreed Upon Correct Views" to it all (which i necessarily don't agree with, though i understand the spirit of what you're getting at), then i would say that many right-leaning comics are essentially marching in lockstep formation with The Agreed Upon INCORRECT Views with THEIR jokes.
like, i've seen so many versions of "but what if bullying is GOOD actually?" not to mention of course "you can't say anything anymore" peppered with an assortment of r-words and old stereotypes and transphobic slurs and such.
not to mention (or, to mention!), "Spouting the establishment corporatist view" isn't what Colbert, Fallon, Stewart, Oliver, Kimmel, and Meyers are doing. all three branches of the US government are majority right wing, so for someone to be LEFT-leaning these days is, i would say, more anti-establishment than the other way.
you know?
thanks for sharing as always!
love
myq
"John Oliver is doing something VERY different from Jimmy Fallon"
Fair. And worth keeping in mind that Oliver is the only one of 'em who doesn't have advertisers to keep happy.
Obviously I'm lumping here, but still, what do they differ on when it comes to politics or pleasing corporate overlords or the "approved by the establishment elites" view?
Would any of 'em ever, say, make a joke that argues against trans women competing in women's sports? 80% of Americans are against that in polls so it seems like a ripe topic for mockery. Same with DEI stuff. Is it any wonder that the comics that DO bring things like that up are gaining fans if those topics are taboo for these folks?
The classic examples to me are when Stewart went on Colbert and said it was a lab leak or when Burr said, "Free Luigi." The sweat on both hosts was palpable. Basically: "Um, we don't do that HERE." Aka "Our advertisers would not be okay with that."
"many right-leaning comics are essentially marching in lockstep formation"
Yeah, I'm not saying the other side (if we're splitting into teams here) is better, just pointing out why they've gained so much popularity. Supply and demand, y'know? As Mitt Romney once replied when asked why he was going so conservative during his Presidential run: "There's shelf space on the right." Agreed there is plenty of tired hackdom going on there.
"all three branches of the US government are majority right wing, so for someone to be LEFT-leaning these days is, i would say, more anti-establishment than the other way."
Depends who you think rules this country. Is it the US government? Because these hosts weren't being anti-Biden in the same way they are anti-Trump. (I hate him too fwiw.)
One could argue the establishment is the corporate overlords who 1) run their broadcast networks and 2) advertise on their shows. Feels pretty obvious these hosts don't wanna get in the crosshairs of those folks. And lots of people can smell that and don't vibe with it and want to hear someone disrupting that rather than going along with it (which feels related to why Dems lost so resoundingly in the last election).
Many fair points! I hear you!
Also, in addition to SURPRISE being a primary characteristic of comedy, I would add that COMMUNICATING WHAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE is often a major facet of it, for a lot of comedians. Not for everyone!
I say this to offer an explanation that makes a lot of sense as to why these hosts have been much more critical of Trump than of Biden (though Stewart certainly went after Biden quite a bit). I don't think they're only aiming to please their corporate overlords (though when you have corporate overlords who can take you off the air, I get that they might consider that when deciding what to put ON the air), I think they're also speaking from the truth of their experience. One reason comics might treat Trump differently than Biden is because Trump is different from Biden, for example.
Regarding "DEI stuff," I think that folks like Stewart, Colbert, Oliver, Kimmel, etc. actually believe that diversity is valuable, and that there are studies that back that idea, so I think the reason they're not going after DEI is because of who they are and what they believe.
I understand the perspective that some comics stand by, where they're not on any side, they're on the funny side. They call out hypocrisy wherever they see it, and they're not beholden to anyone. AND I think there are a lot of comics in this modern rightwingosphere of comedy who are claiming cover under that umbrella while saying nothing much of substance or import (while seeming to CLAIM that it's of substance or import), often super bananas stuff, that isn't based in the reality of their experience, or much of reality at all. Patrice, they all ain't.
And that is a good point about John Oliver not being beholden to advertisers. Many points taken!
Thanks friend!
Shorter version: Feels like many perceive these hosts I mentioned as falling under a Democratic/elite/establishment/corporatist/advertiser-approved worldview and anything that goes against that pov is anathema to their act and that's why so many are seeking comedy that goes against that grain. Stewart coming on Colbert and saying it was quite possibly a lab leak felt groundbreaking because it was so unexpected. It was like a canary in the Paramount+ coal mine. Your point about saying what you believe is of course a good one. But if everything you supposedly believe aligns precisely with what your advertisers want you to believe, people may start to get suspicious.
I agree with your last sentence! And I question whether all of their comedy does indeed align with what “their advertisers want you to believe.” I don’t know! I’m not watching all of it.
I also agree with your first sentence.
And I think it’s very interesting that you say “FEELS like many PERCEIVE…”
I understand this is a conversation about generalizations, but I think at some point, without specific examples, generalizing runs the risk of getting farther and farther from the truth, into the realm of feels and perceptions!
I appreciate you, friend! THAT IS THE TRUTH AND I DO NOT CARE WHETHER THE ADVERTISERS WANT ANYONE TO BELIEVE IT
I like the things both you fellows said here. I’ll add this, which may not add much. I’m not a comedian, just a writer who uses humor sporadically. (More than I use sun block, put it that way.) But i am a huge student of comedy, and although I like comics who are just funny and I don’t argue that getting laughs is less important than serious-minded comedy, I’m a huge Lenny Bruce fan. For me he is a model, because he was often very funny, but also a very serious thinker, and he basically sacrificed his career to tilt at windmills and did THAT very well. And he changed our country, and thus it’s frustrating to see people talking about him as if he’s just a dull historical figure and not a great artist and also a great entertainer.
I bring him up because he could be seen today as a man of the left, and in terms of history and civil rights for both race and gender, he most easily fits into that box. But he also tweaked liberals, especially virtue-signaling which was a fresher target at the time, and was more anti-establishment than anything else. Three decades ago, my fellow liberals got very uncomfortable when i played his records at my house, and I’m sure today the response would be far more hostile.
I spent years laughing at many of the TV comics mentioned here, and i should clarify that i’m anti-trump in the same way i’ve always been anti-Joe McCarthy, but I eventually got weary of the john oliver approach, and the general tv approach discussed above. Not because my politics shifted, but because i just got tired of being pandered to. I like that jon stewart mocked biden enough that I’ve seen liberals suggest (insist, really) that he was out of date and needed to leave the scene. I think when you’re partisan enough, you basically feel the media, including comics, are here to serve the forces of good. (Whatever you think those are.) And I don’t like that idea.
Mainly for this reason— i don’t want a comedy scene where comics aren’t allowed to mock people and ideas on the approved list, even when that list is largely people and ideas that i like. I think if you tune into comedy and you demand pandering, you don’t see comedy the way i do; comics are— or they used to be— among the only social commentators that could be honest about sacred cows, and honest about our human flaws. Historically, a lot of stuff liberals absolutely take for granted now is part of our culture largely because of the work of bruce, pryor, et al, and the current progressive stance that comics are one joke away from the left’s enemies list has been a helpful reminder to me that i care about comedy more than politics. I’ve also been reminded that Americans tend to be parochial about their own history, and the history of art and culture in this country.
My voting pattern isn’t about to shift toward Trump, for reasons people don’t need me to spell out. Trump, for me, is Roy Cohn’s protege. There’s more to him than that, but i don’t need there to be more. I knew plenty about Roy Cohn before Trump was a household word, and anyone who stole his act from Cohn can be dismissed for that reason alone, at my house at least. And i am very afraid of what a Cohn protege can do to our country. But when it comes to comedy, i don’t think it’s healthy when comics are afraid to touch the sacred cows of the moment.
I like the comedy both of you do; Myq has a powerful comedy technique— he’s like an open fire hydrant— and Matt is very good at puncturing the smug and complacent thinking that is everywhere in our country today. I’m sorry I’ve missed you both when you’ve played my area. Also, now that I see what it looks like on the screen, I very much regret that choice of words. Let’s say I hope to catch you next time you concertize in my jurisdiction.
Thanks for the kind and thoughtful words, Karl!
I appreciate all of this.
One thing, with respect to this: "i don’t want a comedy scene where comics aren’t allowed to mock people and ideas on the approved list"...
Who is saying that people aren't allowed to mock whom?
I mean, if someone makes an unoriginal joke mocking trans people or the mentally ill or some such, I certainly will think things like "that's a bad joke and an ignorant person," but never "they're not ALLOWED to say that." And even if someone SAYS "they're not allowed," that's not true. I mean, back in the days of Carlin and Lenny Bruce, those guys literally went to JAIL for saying things. Actual censorship.
I say what I want to. And there are things I won't say today that I did say in the past, because of my own choices. I used to have a joke about sexual assault that I thought was very funny and had solid joke logic to it and was original and a good joke, AND some dudes came up to me after a show once and said "we loved the rape joke, bro," and that made me reconsider what that joke was doing. Not to compare myself to Chappelle, but I'm exactly like Chappelle who left a multi-million dollar TV show job because people weren't laughing the way he intended, is the story.
When we're talking about late night show hosts who have TV jobs at companies owned by big corporations with obligations to advertisers, the question of who's "allowed" to say what takes on a different meaning than a standup deciding what to say, which might differ based on situation, you know?
Like, I've performed at Catholic colleges and they've asked for no jokes about abortion. Plenty of corporate comedians are given guidelines to avoid certain topics. You want to do standup on the Tonight Show, you can't swear!
We comedians all make decisions about what gigs we say yes to and what material we decide to write and perform.
And as audience members, we all get to decide what we like and what we don't, voting with our eyeballs and dollars and attention and such.
With respect to this... "I think when you’re partisan enough, you basically feel the media, including comics, are here to serve the forces of good. (Whatever you think those are.) And I don’t like that idea."
I understand what you're saying AND I think it's every human being's obligation to treat others with respect/kindness. Including media. Including comics. I don't know that it's a partisan thing. I do know that not everyone agrees on what treating others with respect/kindness looks like. And maybe people won't even agree with my use of the word "obligation" here. I don't know if I agree with it. But there's something in the spirit of it that I think we all can understand. Like, as members of a society, we have an obligation not to physically harm each other. That's codified in our laws, but that's not why most people don't harm each other. We have a sense of it. We know it when we see it. And some of us see it slightly differently than others.
Words are powerful. Freedom of speech is important AND there are times when free speech is not absolute (e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, or libel/slander, say).
I think some people wield their powerful words with great care and thoughtfulness. And some other folks do other things!
That's all! (Folks!) ?!
Thanks again for sharing, Karl! And Matt! Great conversation!
Sure, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. And I don’t tend to gravitate to the comics who traffic in cheap laughs, or whose jokes play on prejudice rather than insight or substantive social commentary. I should also say that the stuff I’m talking about cuts both ways; consumers across the spectrum want to be pandered to. And I also think, generally, that the cultural shift that has ended up with audiences less tolerant of cheap jokes based on othering is a good thing. I’m not trying to romanticize the past, as some do. I think the most accurate take is that people have always been narrow minded and provincial, and the comedy landscape has always reacted to that in more than one way at any given time, because every comic is different, and every comic has to make choices about how to make a living, and juggle the needs of art and commerce.
I see a lot of people making points similar to mine, or Matt’s, and they don’t seem to be in good faith. For the most part, the anti-woke crowd leaves me cold, and most of that message feels gratuitous and disingenuous. And when I watch comedy with a right wing bent, it suffers from the same kind of narrow-mindedness I’m chiding the left for. I recall a bit one comic did where he was pissed off that guy fieri gets mocked while anthony bourdain is admired. (This was back when bourdain was alive.) And this comic clearly knew nothing about Bourdain; he was trying to chide the left for its prejudice, but he wasn’t demonstrating any self awareness about his own blind spots. The whole bit was painful to watch. And I imagine I would see many more things like that if I were more open in my viewing habits.
I see Bill Burr as a guy who balances all of it pretty well; I used to find some of his comedy irritating, but he made me think, and over time I’ve warmed up to him. And I think it’s definitely fair to say that for every Bill Burr, who takes his job seriously, there are a lot of comics who want things more open mainly so their job will be easier. I suspect that even when you and I might appear to be in disagreement, generalizing here about large and complicated trends, we would probably line up most of the time when evaluating a particular joke or comic.
It’s difficult to talk about this stuff, especially on social media, where saying one thing can easily look like you missed some other important thing.
This whole thread is an example of what can happen when thoughtful people dig into a complex issue; it’s healthy and helpful. It’s also not typical of social media conversation, unfortunately.
Thanks for listening!
Thank YOU for listening, and sharing!
I agree with you that we mainly agree!
Like with this: "every comic is different, and every comic has to make choices about how to make a living, and juggle the needs of art and commerce."
And this: "I see a lot of people making points similar to mine, or Matt’s, and they don’t seem to be in good faith. For the most part, the anti-woke crowd leaves me cold, and most of that message feels gratuitous and disingenuous."
And this: "for every Bill Burr, who takes his job seriously, there are a lot of comics who want things more open mainly so their job will be easier."
And this: "It’s difficult to talk about this stuff, especially on social media, where saying one thing can easily look like you missed some other important thing."
And THIS: "This whole thread is an example of what can happen when thoughtful people dig into a complex issue; it’s healthy and helpful."
I agree as well that generalizing can only go so far (he said, generalizing).
And if this kind of conversation isn't typical of social media (a generalization), the good news is that each of us is a specific individual, and we can be the kind of social media interaction we want to see in the world. We can be the real specific human interaction we want to see in the world. And in comedy.
And good news, we're doing it!
Thanks again, my friend!
And thanks Matt for setting the table for this delicious food for thought meal.
No, its just the pendulum swinging back after left-wing mind terror for ages.