Comedian: "I want to give up on standup because I find the toxicity overwhelming"

My reply to a new comedian on the verge of giving up.

I recently posted an exchange about Chappelle and speaking recklessly:

The best comedians say things others in society believe but are too afraid to say. We are the tightrope walkers; if we don't do it, who else will? Also, be funny 'cuz otherwise that's just a TED talk.

Afterwards, I received this email from a young comedian (published with permission):

I would like to offer a small story in an effort to potentially shift your mindset on what you say here "See, I think being reckless is kinda great – especially if the ramifications are merely hurt feelings."

For background, I'm a new comedian- 11 shows & 12 open mics deep at this point. (I'm both a total nerd that I count, and also still so new that I can count how many gigs I've had.) I sincerely love stand up as a craft. I feel like a poet and a scientist trying to find exactly the right words in the right place to get the most laughter. 

Recently, at an open mic, a man did his 5 min set about a rape van. Now, there were about 20 people in the room total, 4 were women. Statistically, and conservatively, speaking, one of those women has experienced sexual assault - welp, I can't speak for the other 3, but I can say for sure that that statistic was correct and I am that unlucky winner*. As I was hearing this man do his jokes, and worse, the audience laughing at the jokes I could feel my heart pounding and my breath getting shorter. I was the clinical definition of triggered rather than the overused dramatic definition. And then, boom, I went on right after him and did terrible because I was stuttering so much trying to regain my composure. 

I'll be honest, I feel like I want to quit stand up before I even get started because of men like this. This isn't just hurt feelings. I am a person who wants to give up on this craft that I love because I find the toxicity in this scene overwhelming.

As of right now, I am too stubborn & too in love with stand up to give up. But, I'll be honest. Hearing that the importance of free, unfiltered, speech is more important than encouraging diverse voices in comedy to not quit before they even get started, is frustrating. But, I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you've never thought of the ripple effect in this way. 

My reply below…

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I love how you put this: “I sincerely love stand up as a craft. I feel like a poet and a scientist trying to find exactly the right words in the right place to get the most laughter.”

Don’t quit if you love it.

It sucks you had that open mic experience. I’ve often wondered how many people have decided comedy is “not for me” after enduring brutal/gross/threatening stuff at open mics. I’ve certainly felt the ick at many back in the day and I wasn’t even in the “splash zone” of feeling threatened.

And it’s gotta be worse when other folks in the room are laughing/encouraging material that makes you cringe. Unfortunately, comedy attracts plenty of misanthropes who will +1 toxic jokes. Turns out nothing attracts awful people like a microphone and a captive audience. (See: Politics.)

Aside: That’s why an audience of real people is a way better judge of what works compared to audiences made up of other people awaiting their turn to perform.

To me, it’s crucial to note this happened at an open mic. That makes me think he doesn’t really know what he’s doing or the impact his material might be having on you/others. Experience level matters. When I advocate for artfully pushing boundaries, I’m thinking of veteran comics like Chappelle, George Carlin, Bill Burr, and Doug Stanhope, masters of the craft who are able to wield their words mindfully and with intention. They can push buttons in a glorious way.

An inexperienced open mic’er doing a toxic brain dump can wind up just feeling freaky though. Part of a comic’s job is to read the room and know how their words are being received. At least when Chappelle offends people, he does so with full control of his “instrument.” The guy you describe sounds like a rookie who doesn’t realize the collateral damage he’s causing.

You wrote, “Hearing that the importance of free, unfiltered, speech is more important than encouraging diverse voices in comedy to not quit before they even get started, is frustrating.” I understand your frustration. However, I didn’t say that and think it’s a false choice; I love unfiltered speech and I want to hear it from diverse voices in comedy. Both can be true.

As for quitting, again: Don’t quit if you love it.

I argue for unfiltered, reckless, and surprising speech because I feel it’s essential to much of the standup comedy I love. If comedy had an HR department that penalized comics for saying the wrong thing, we’d start to sound as feckless and anodyne as all the lame-o communication in corporate America. Comedy is the antidote to that – and one of the few places left in our society where people can still say the “wrong” thing (as long as it’s funny). I think that’s beautiful and important; I don’t want to neuter comics just because some people find certain topics offensive.

Plus, sometimes you need to let people say the wrong things to get to the right things. And sometimes the wrong thing for you is the right thing for someone else. In the end, I think the audience is the ultimate judge. Because if they aren’t, who else gets to be the judge? We could ban all rape jokes, but there are comics like Anthony Jeselnik who do hilarious jokes on the topic. Who’s to say when/where these jokes are allowed? My belief is when you enter into a comedy club, open mic, etc., you assume the risk that you may hear words you don’t like. (If you/others at that mic felt physically threatened, that’d be a different story.)

“How can you defend this guy’s terrible material?” Guess I think like the ACLU defending the rights of those Nazis to march in Skokie: I can hate the message/the messengers, yet still defend their right to go out there and spread it because banning it sounds even scarier. Likewise, I can hate shitty comics doing toxic material but still think they should be allowed to do it because there needs to be somewhere people can say stuff that can’t be said in polite society. Open mic crowds wind up being lab rats for jokes – and sometimes the experiment fails. Also: Comics may only know how to feel about a joke after they tell it.

Some questions to consider:

• In some places, there are female/LGBTQ+ friendly open mics. Are there any near you? If not, maybe you could start one? That’d help avoid this scenario happening in the future. If the only spaces available to you feel toxic, you may have to create a new one that fits your vibe.

• On some level, open mics are places where failure needs to be expected and even encouraged. A newish comic experimenting with edgy stuff will often go off the rails. However, that can also be a valuable learning experience that helps them (and others in the room) do better in the future. If they can’t figure it out at an open mic in front of other comics, where are they supposed to go?

• Why do you think other people in the room were laughing? Were they nervous? Are they awful too? Or was there something redeemable about his jokes? I understand that you felt bad about what was happening but what about the people who liked it? Should your feelings trump theirs? The guy’s material certainly sounds gross, but I’m not sure what jokes he actually told or if they were any good. There’s an amazing Norm Macdonald bit where he talks for 10 minutes about how he’d murder a woman if he was a serial killer. Sounds awful, but the reality is hilarious (and harmless). And there are other comics who do hilarious bits about abortion, the holocaust, etc. That’s why I try not to judge material based solely on the topic. After all, if we did that, classic movies like The Producers and books like Lolita would wind up on the burn pile.

• Why do you think he did this material? Is there any reason to feel compassion for him? Is he a genuine threat to others? Or could there be another reason he said all that stuff? My years in standup have taught me that the men who talk tough onstage are usually harmless while actual predators cloak their evilness. Maybe he’s a newer comic who needs to rely on shock value to get over. Maybe he’s actually quite scared of women and incapable of dealing with them. Maybe he has no one in his life who cares enough about him to explain why this sorta thing is not okay. Maybe something happened to him that left him scarred and traumatized. I don’t know. Do you? The hardest thing about compassion is how often it requires you to go first. I wonder if this is a man to be feared or pitied. Then again, I wasn’t there.

• If you continue doing standup at traditional venues, you will inevitably perform alongside comics with material you don’t like. There will be jokes about violence, incest, racism, suicide, and other unpleasant topics. Do you think you will feel triggered if that happens? If so, are you sure this is the right artform (or these are the right spaces) for you? It’s tough to be a pilot if you’re afraid of heights. For better or worse, having a thick skin is a pretty essential part of standup – we all have to deal with hecklers, hell gigs, weird spaces, and unsavory characters. I wish it wasn’t that way, but I also wish I still had hair and the Knicks were NBA champs.

• You also wrote, “Maybe you've never thought of the ripple effect in this way.” I have, but I guess I just don’t respect ripple effect thinking all that much. Maybe that’s because I came up in an era when people argued video games caused mass shootings and heavy metal drove people to suicide. People argued for those “ripple effects” and thankfully were eventually dismissed. Plus, everyone has their touchy topics. Let’s say I’m a television critic who publishes a glowing review of White Lotus and then a gay man writes a message like yours to me:

Recently, on White Lotus, there was a whole plotline about evil gays trying to murder an innocent woman. I’ve been gay-bashed before and as I was watching, I could feel my heart pounding and my breath getting shorter. I was the clinical definition of triggered rather than the overused dramatic definition. I feel like I want to quit watching TV because of scenes like this. This isn't just hurt feelings. I am a person who wants to give up on television that I love because I find the toxicity in this plot overwhelming.

Would this person be right to feel this way? What should happen about it? Should White Lotus be cancelled? Should we force showrunners to exclude plots like this from future shows? Are my rhetorical questions getting tiresome yet?

• Where is “the line” for what a comic can/can’t talk about? Have you seen Mike Birbiglia’s Netflix special Thank God for Jokes? I’m starting to believe it’s essential viewing in this age of offense. Here’s a good summary with some quotes from the show. In it, Birbigs says:

[After the Charlie Hebdo incident,] my mother said to me, she said, “Well can’t these writers just write jokes that aren’t offensive?” And I thought about it. And I said, “I’m not sure that’s possible, because all jokes are offensive to someone.”

He tells a joke about an airline passenger who has a nut allergy and says:

You know who doesn’t like this story are people with nut allergies. And you know who does like this story is everyone else. And, I feel genuinely conflicted about that, you know because there’s like almost a thousand people in this room together right now, and about 997 of us are like, “Ha ha! Nuts in the air!” And then three of us secretly are like, “That’s my life.” You know. And I don’t want to be that to you, but jokes have to be about something.

Jokes have to be about something. And here’s Birbigs on “the line” question:

That’s what you always have to think about when you’re writing jokes, is sort of, “Where is the line?” And you don’t want to cross it, but you want to go near it. And, you know, it’s subjective, sort of, where the line is, and that’s where it becomes complicated.

But let’s get back to you…

Don’t quit if you love it.

I can’t talk to this guy so I’ll focus on you and the things you have agency over: I hope you figure out a way to not let other people’s material impact you so strongly. (Perhaps meditation and/or therapy might help?) I want you to be able to hate this guy/his jokes (if you want to) but also brush him/them off and do your thing. I want you to control the things you control and not let the things you don’t control impact you so much. Y’know, zen shit.

And, as I’ve written before, I want you (and everyone else) to let go of being offended.

Comics say awful things to each other all the time without feeling like a line’s been crossed. If I wear a fedora and roll in for a set, I know I’ll get mocked mercilessly for it. If I bomb, my friends will gloat about it after. My Jewish heritage gets mentioned by fellow comics in all kinds of ways the ADL would oppose. It’s part of the deal; whatever button is sticking out will get pressed.

As comedians, we learn to take it all in stride. There’s no HR department. We are people who play with words and once you enter the arena, stuff like that is fair game. Getting upset about it just gives the other person power over you. A quote I love from Dr. Wayne Dyer: "Stop looking for opportunities to be offended."

Context worth mentioning: I’m an old, straight white guy who’s been hanging out in comedy spaces for years (which can cause you to detach in all kinds of ways). Honestly, I don’t understand the difference between what you describe as “the clinical definition of triggered” and “the overused dramatic definition.” I think therapy-speak has turned victimhood into currency. I believe words are, well, just words and jokes can’t hurt you unless you let them. (Check Hannah Gadsby’s Nanette for a differing view.) So that’s the p.o.v. I bring to this discussion.

I hope this guy stops doing this material (assuming it’s as terrible as you say). Yet I also want you to not let what others say control your feelings and composure so much. It’s giving him too much power over your life. If that means creating your own show/space/environment, go for it. Or perhaps improv/storytelling/something else will provide a more nurturing environment than standup, which can often feel like a battlefield.

But I hope you stick with standup and, if this happens again, that you figure out a way to take whatever you feel in that moment and use it creatively to follow that comic with a killer joke (or just words that honestly explain how you feel) that lets all the other people in the room who feel the same way know they aren’t alone, lets them laugh, and come together – and makes that other comic reconsider what they say onstage in the future. And I want you to keep at it, get big, and have some young girl (or other “diverse voice”) watch one of your sets and feel inspired so they too can get up onstage and make people laugh.

Don’t quit if you love it.

Good luck.

P.S. In retrospect, you’ve also helped me clarify an important notion in my own head: What's right for an experienced pro may not be right for a newer comedian. Someone like Bill Burr can toe the line on edgy material and make it sing. Too many inexperienced open mic'ers see that and think they can do the same when they really can't – and their efforts just wind up making folks uncomfortable. So I guess if I'm targeting newbie comedians with this newsletter, my thoughts on this should come with some kinda warning label. Maybe something like those pics they put on cigarette packages in Europe but with a female audience member making an intense “I really wish you wouldn't” face.